How a Former Police Officer is Working For Accountability

At a personal level, what brought you to the field of policing, and how did you become interested in reform?

I became an NYPD officer when I was young. I had always thought policing was a noble profession. The more time I spent on the job, the more I recognized the multitude of issues within not only the culture of policing but also its relationship with the community. Everyone who I worked with in Brooklyn and the Bronx over the course of my career were dedicated officers who wanted to make communities safer. But sometimes that’s not how our work was perceived by the public. At R Street, I try to use my practitioner experience, along with my academic knowledge, to have an impact in the policy realm that will help improve policing.

Given your experience in policing, where do you see the greatest need to support reforms today? 

One of the most important things is training. When I went through the academy, we were taught to go out there and lock up bad guys. They didn’t care how you went about it, as long as you did it lawfully. There was nothing about talking to people, de-escalating a situation, or humanizing the people who you’re dealing with. In the almost three years since my retirement, there’s already a difference in the training that new officers receive. Younger officers understand that the gift of gab is one of the greatest assets an officer can have. Even if someone is an alleged criminal, that person is still a human. Ultimately, this will help to dismantle this long-standing culture in policing of us versus them.

What role does building trust between police and communities play in improving public safety?

Policing is all about working with the people who are living in your precinct. First of all, they’re entrusting their safety to you. Your community is also your greatest asset. If they have faith that you are operating legitimately, then they are more likely to report crimes, give a witness statement, be a cooperating victim, or point out someone doing bad stuff on the corner. I’m hoping that as we start to improve training and accountability mechanisms we’ll start seeing more of this collaborative effort between police and the community.

What accountability and oversight measures are necessary for police agencies today? 

At R Street, we’re big advocates for civilian review boards to ensure officer accountability. Police agencies can’t police themselves, and it is important to have independent oversight. Some agencies, like the NYPD for example, have had independent civilian oversight for a long time. But not every agency has this and we have worked on bills in states across the country to create this kind of oversight and accountability. 

We also advocate for police agencies to monitor their own use-of-force incidents. Until recently, police didn’t do that unless there was a catastrophe, like an officer-involved shooting. Now you’re seeing a lot more agencies track any use of force, including using OC spray, an expandable baton, or a taser. Sometimes an officer uses these tools for his or her safety. But it needs to be tracked to understand if an officer is overusing these tools, and if departments have use-of-force issues. I’ll be focusing future research on why we haven’t had more voluntary reporting by agencies. The FBI has been trying to put together a national use-of-force database for five years now, and we want agencies to report their numbers. On the news, you see when one cop does something really bad. But we know that not every agency has these problems on a regular basis. If we’re not reporting, then the public doesn’t get the full picture.

How should police support and work with other public safety professionals like crisis responders and mental health treatment providers? 

There’s not one model that can be used everywhere. The most important thing is for agencies to assess their needs — for instance learning how many 911 calls they get that are mental health-related and don’t necessarily require a police response. Then they can put together a unit that has a first responder, like an EMS worker or a paramedic, and put them together with a social service or mental health worker. My team and I have analyzed different crisis response models across the country. Some of them use a co-responder model where they dispatch one regular police officer with a mental health worker. One agency in South Carolina has been piloting a program where they dispatch officers who have a master’s degree in social work. They arrive in plain clothes and offer mental health services, but they have that dual capacity if the situation turns dangerous. Other agencies are doing a community-based model where there is no law enforcement presence unless the situation requires it. In 2021, New York City started piloting the B‑HEARD program, where the city dispatches health workers to mental health calls and doesn’t send law enforcement unless the 911 operator sees a public safety risk.

R Street works not only with local police agencies but also with state and federal lawmakers. Do you see potential for bipartisanship on these issues?

At R Street, we cater more to the center-right audience. Everyone on my team is a former criminal justice practitioner. Apart from me, we have a former prosecutor and a former parole and probation officer, and we’re all academics now. When I started, there was a lot of bipartisan support for policing reforms — ending no-knock warrants, chokeholds, and so on. In recent years, it has lost momentum, especially as the media highlights nationwide crime increases. My team and I have been trying to revitalize the conversation at the state and federal level. We go to lawmakers’ offices and talk to people who are hesitant about important reforms. We explain to them, from our practitioner angle, that current practice is costly and ineffective, and it’s furthering the wedge between police and the public. Folks who are more conservative-minded may be hesitant about bills that seem like too much change at once. My team and I try to promote incremental change and then assess the outcomes around public safety.

In your research, you’ve gathered data on police recruitment and retention. What challenges exist today in those areas?

There’s a huge gap between my generation and the newest recruits. Based on my research, Gen Z doesn’t stay at jobs as long. When you become a cop, that’s a 20 to 25 year commitment at most agencies. But many young people today don’t want to do the same thing for that long. The pay also comes into play. But the most important thing to change is police culture. Law enforcement is the only job in which you can use coercive force to gain compliance. With that power there comes a culture of being a guardian or even a warrior. That’s not all bad, but if you’re relying on that rather than doing what’s in the public interest, there’s a culture problem. Police also develop cynicism after seeing a lot of bad stuff. People call you on the worst days of their life — when they’ve been a victim of domestic violence or their house got burglarized. When I was an officer in Brooklyn, during one shift I responded to 11 separate shootings. It takes a mental toll. For these reasons, I don’t think the job overall is as desirable as it once was. The good thing is that cops are starting to speak out, and we’re starting to pay more attention to the mental health needs of officers.

What do you like to do personally when you’re not tied up with these incredibly challenging questions of police accountability?

My husband and I are really big fans of playing golf. I just started playing recently. He’s still on the job, and he’s going to retire in the next year, so we’re seeing if we can improve our golf game, because we’re moving to Florida in a couple of years. We also like to go around to the local wineries in Hudson Valley, where we live. When we were both on the job we didn’t have any days off together. Now we do, and we try to get out together.